Now where did I put my shocked face???

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San Francisco has some of the most liberal based laws in the Country . The Citizens have to be careful if they want to walk in their once Beautiful historic City Human waste and used needles line the sidewalks . There have been outbreaks of 3rd World diseases that are transmitted when Human waste dries and becomes air born and is breathed in . The Homeless are drawn to this City for social programs that enable their deadbeat parasitic lifestyle . The City creates its own Homeless with liberal response to the drug problem .
 
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San Francisco has some of the most liberal based laes in the Country . The Citizens have to be careful if they want to ealk in their once Beautiful historic City Human waste and used needles line the sidewalks . There have been outbreaks of 3rd World diseases that are transmitted when Human waste dries and becomes air born and is breathed in . The Homeless are drawn to this City for social programs that enable their deadbeat parasitic lifestyle . The City creates its own Homeless with liberal response to the drug problem .
Now there is a great example of our tax money well spent; more homeless. Such a fantastic success.
 
And NO I'm not saying let people starve.

Doc, to be honest I'm struggling with this comment. Note that this is for people capable of working, not the severely mentally or physically handicapped or children.

When conflicted, I go to my foundations (the Bible and my principal of individual freedom/choices which don't interfere with others).

#1: Bible says if they don't work they don't eat. That doesn't directly imply starving, but it can imply them getting really, really hungry. To the point where their addiction to ____ (fill in blank: drugs, laziness, etc) becomes less important than their addiction to not dying (aka eating). But what if they don't get to that point?

#2: Individual freedom. There are 2 sides of this: their choice to do nothing and my choice to not subsidize them.

I do not want them to starve. But if they think they can out-wait me (and expect me to support them forever), then they're just playing a game & at that point I'm just fine with them starving.

So maybe that's the bottom line. I too don't want people to starve. But my WANT will be set aside by their WANT. If someone so much WANTS to do nothing (IOW starve), then I will surrender to their absolute stupidity. Again, I'm not talking children or those not capable.

Now I don't want to over-complicate this. Let's say someone does drugs and turn themselves into vegetables. Their choice. Does that mean society needs to support that person forever, or find a way to gently let them go? Again, what-if scenarios. A bit too deep for this conversation.
 
Texas, you are taking that out of context. The rest of the post is an explanation of that comment. The last line especially.
When tourists stop feeding the bears, do the bears starve? No!

In other words, When the Park Service says "Don't feed the bears" they are NOT saying "Let the bears starve."
 
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Texas, you are taking that out of context.

Doc, my apologies. My post wasn't intended to twist your entire thought. Rather it was about how my mind has been winding around the whole concept of letting someone starve.

My first line before was in error. I wrote 'this comment' and I should have written 'this idea or thought'. Thank you for pointing this out.
 
I for one find it hard to feel sorry for the homeless, i wouldn't feed em, it does nothing but create a feeding frenzy. Me and Wife donated 24 turkeys for years on the holidays to a Christian group that goes out and shelters some of the homeless (women with kids) in Portland but it become such a mess, we stopped the donation run in it's entirety.
 
Thing is, there are few different KINDS of homeless, and they are separate problems to be addressed with separate solutions. You can't just lump them all together.

1. The "traditional" homeless, the ones who are only homeless because they lost their income, and fell on hard times. They want to work, and have a home again, and a job again, etc. SOLUTION - work programs that include housing options

2. The "addict" homeless, like the above, but are in this situation due to being addicted to some substance, so can't dig themselves out. SOLUTION - same as the above, but including a Rehab program, and supervision almost as a criminal.

3. The "lazy" homeless, perhaps the most difficult to solve. These folks actually enjoy the do nothing lifestyle, even with its risks. Indeed, the risks may even be part of it. They have no desire to better themselves, so a program won't help them. For these types, you have one of two choices...leave them to their own devices, or take care of them, knowing it will never improve. These are the ones who make the most mess, and why they build the park benches the way they do, etc. So, you have to decide...enable them, or treat them as a nuisance?
 
Gazrok,

You missed probably the 2nd largest group. Mentally ill. I think addicts are #1 in numbers with mental cases #2.

Regarding the lazy, I have zero problem leaving them to their own demise.

For the 'traditional homeless', I think they're either #3 or #4. I have no problem giving people a 'hand up'. Not a hand out. Time limited.
 
This new industry that turns panhandling into a carreer should be illegal . On My commute to work I pass several that have become land marks always the same place wearing the same clothes . I know people that have bought groceries for them and they set them down and leave them , I have seen these panhandlers in stores dressed nice and buying dvd's and cd's .
 
This new industry that turns panhandling into a carreer should be illegal . On My commute to work I pass several that have become land marks always the same place wearing the same clothes . I know people that have bought groceries for them and they set them down and leave them , I have seen these panhandlers in stores dressed nice and buying dvd's and cd's .
There's a few locals that have been arrested many times for harassing people at the exit ramps. One guy drives a practically new SUV. They take pictures of them and put on the local fb page to warn people.
 
If you want to open the topic to panhandling, that's another can of worms.

Every once in a while a group show up for a day in a town near me. They have hand-drawn signs with a church name. They all look rough, usually all black (in a 90% white+hispanic town). Stopped & talked to one of the people, she was honest. They are all druggies from the nearest big town. A guy goes around rounding them up, drives them to a small town to work the street lights asking for handouts, and pays them a percentage.

It was only a minute or two before a 'coordinator' came over & told her to stop talking. Heard enough. Just another scam.

Never 'give' to a person/group that you are not familiar with. If you give to an individual, never do cash. Talk with them. Walk over to a McD's with them & buy them a meal. But the greatest gift you can give them is conversation. Encouragement. Treat them like a normal person, it's likely been ages since they were treated that way. Dignity has value beyond measure. You'll figure out fairly quickly if they are druggies, mental, 'lost', or whatever.

But many people think giving them money will help (actually just make the giver feel better). Wrong. It'll be flowing in their veins within 30 minutes. If you give cash to an addict, you're giving them drugs. Often other 'gifts' are sold/traded for drugs. Watch it go down their throat if you're feeding them. Unless you want them living at your house, let groups like Salvation Army bed them.
 
When I ran away from home as a kid I was technically homeless. I lived in some abandoned buildings, with friends on and off, at a crackhouse...

I knew most of the other homeless people, we had a pretty high homeless population for a town of 26,000 (had a mental institution close in the late 70's, and many of them were housed FEMA style in trailers in the west end of town, but would just wander off and live in the street).

Maybe just because of the institution, most of the adult homeless had mental issues. Pretty severe issues. Guys dressed in garbage bags who thought they were Jesus and would preach to you, or try to heal you. A guy who thought he was a knight and wore a suit of armor made of downspouts and duct tape. A couple red headed brothers. Many more too dangerous to do anything but get away from, at the age of 13.

It was pretty wild. Me and a couple other kids would walk around smelling, and find people grilling and cooking out during football games they were watching inside. A few minutes watching, and you would be running down the alleys juggling screaming hot burgers and brats. We learned how to shim padlocks and card locks and pop doors, but never pick locks. We ate so many teenage mutant ninja turtle pizzas by popping the door at a distribution center!

Lots of drugs around. Most of the druggies would crash at the crackhouse, and then go home to clean up, then rinse and repeat after stealing money from their family, or whoever. I actually worked, at a farm, and a horse ranch, and at a golf course through high school. I would ride my bike everywhere, and eventually (sophomore year?) my dad bought me a Kawasaki 100 as a gift, and for staying in school, mostly, through all of it. That helped a lot with work and getting around. Man, I could ride a BMX bike 30 miles! Like nothing. I saw some overdoses, and a few deaths. A few police raids, broken doors, busted through a wall once to get into a room they couldn't break the door down on. I went to jail a lot, but never had any drug charges pressed. They would send me home, and I would run away again, until I got emancipated then everyone left me alone.

I never panhandled. I did steal, food, change from cars, shoplifting. Never got caught. A lot of fights, I had a bunch of assault charges but all as a minor and many of them dropped, the Judge was a really good guy, and a lot of the time, if it was with the older homeless guys they wouldn't call the cops.

Very few were just lazy. You have to have a certain amount of determination to stay homeless, when programs are available. Or you have a mental problem, or you are an addict who cant use at the shelter, or you have to be like me and have a disagreement with your folks and be too stubborn to ever back down.

But lazy? Let me tell you, in the Midwest at least, it gets cold. It's hard to find food, it's most of your time is just figuring out where your next meal is coming from. It's a job. Seriously. If you don't want to dumpster dive, or throw yourself on the mercy of the state, you are going to have a job, the job title is "not starving'. I would go 4 or 5 days solid without food. I liked school because of the cafeteria, but the lunch ladies were cruel and wouldn't let you take as much as you wanted to. I honestly think those years stunted my growth!

Still, when I see the guys at the intersection begging, if they can do that? If they are together enough mentally to do that, just to write the sign, they can do something else. There are places in Madison that you show up at 7 am, they will put you on a job somewhere. And the city has bus programs for the disadvantaged.

I got cleaned up in the military, and I was BLESSED that I avoided a serious enough criminal record that they would take me. I would probably be dead long ago otherwise. I was going into Chicago to pick up and move drugs all through High School. People stuck guns in my face, man people are crazy and unpredictable, especially around kids for some reason. Fake tough guys and cowards. I did ok though, you just have to learn to pick out the bad ones.

It isn't anyone's responsibility to "help" most homeless people, IMO. For the ones living in their car, showering at the truck stop, they are already on their way up and out, they have it together. I feel bad if small kids are involved, yeah help them out, food pantries, and maybe some housing help if they want it. But most people wont be helped by help. They will just be "tided over" until the next time they lose it. And they will, I have watched it happen over and over. It's a shame, but you can't help most of them. You can for a little while, but that's it. You can't fix them. I can't think of any way that you could.

I had to decide to clean up my life, and I had to be very careful to keep myself in a situation where I could clean it up when the time was right. If people aren't taking that care, to keep just a bare minimum of concern for rejoining society, then they don't want help anyway, they will refuse it. They will curse you for wanting to help.
 
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When I ran away from home as a kid I was technically homeless. I lived in some abandoned buildings, with friends on and off, at a crackhouse...

I knew most of the other homeless people, we had a pretty high homeless population for a town of 26,000 (had a mental institution close in the late 70's, and many of them were housed FEMA style in trailers in the west end of town, but would just wander off and live in the street).

Maybe just because of the institution, most of the adult homeless had mental issues. Pretty severe issues. Guys dressed in garbage bags who thought they were Jesus and would preach to you, or try to heal you. A guy who thought he was a knight and wore a suit of armor made of downspouts and duct tape. A couple red headed brothers. Many more too dangerous to do anything but get away from, at the age of 13.

It was pretty wild. Me and a couple other kids would walk around smelling, and find people grilling and cooking out during football games they were watching inside. A few minutes watching, and you would be running down the alleys juggling screaming hot burgers and brats. We learned how to shim padlocks and card locks and pop doors, but never pick locks. We ate so many teenage mutant ninja turtle pizzas by popping the door at a distribution center!

Lots of drugs around. Most of the druggies would crash at the crackhouse, and then go home to clean up, then rinse and repeat after stealing money from their family, or whoever. I actually worked, at a farm, and a horse ranch, and at a golf course through high school. I would ride my bike everywhere, and eventually (sophomore year?) my dad bought me a Kawasaki 100 as a gift, and for staying in school, mostly, through all of it. That helped a lot with work and getting around. Man, I could ride a BMX bike 30 miles! Like nothing. I saw some overdoses, and a few deaths. A few police raids, broken doors, busted through a wall once to get into a room they couldn't break the door down on. I went to jail a lot, but never had any drug charges pressed. They would send me home, and I would run away again, until I got emancipated then everyone left me alone.

I never panhandled. I did steal, food, change from cars, shoplifting. Never got caught. A lot of fights, I had a bunch of assault charges but all as a minor and many of them dropped, the Judge was a really good guy, and a lot of the time, if it was with the older homeless guys they wouldn't call the cops.

Very few were just lazy. You have to have a certain amount of determination to stay homeless, when programs are available. Or you have a mental problem, or you are an addict who cant use at the shelter, or you have to be like me and have a disagreement with your folks and be too stubborn to ever back down.

But lazy? Let me tell you, in the Midwest at least, it gets cold. It's hard to find food, it's most of your time is just figuring out where your next meal is coming from. It's a job. Seriously. If you don't want to dumpster dive, or throw yourself on the mercy of the state, you are going to have a job, the job title is "not starving'. I would go 4 or 5 days solid without food. I liked school because of the cafeteria, but the lunch ladies were cruel and wouldn't let you take as much as you wanted to. I honestly think those years stunted my growth!

Still, when I see the guys at the intersection begging, if they can do that? If they are together enough mentally to do that, just to write the sign, they can do something else. There are places in Madison that you show up at 7 am, they will put you on a job somewhere. And the city has bus programs for the disadvantaged.

I got cleaned up in the military, and I was BLESSED that I avoided a serious enough criminal record that they would take me. I would probably be dead long ago otherwise. I was going into Chicago to pick up and move drugs all through High School. People stuck guns in my face, man people are crazy and unpredictable, especially around kids for some reason. Fake tough guys and cowards. I did ok though, you just have to learn to pick out the bad ones.

It isn't anyone's responsibility to "help" most homeless people, IMO. For the ones living in their car, showering at the truck stop, they are already on their way up and out, they have it together. I feel bad if small kids are involved, yeah help them out, food pantries, and maybe some housing help if they want it. But most people wont be helped by help. They will just be "tided over" until the next time they lose it. And they will, I have watched it happen over and over. It's a shame, but you can't help most of them. You can for a little while, but that's it. You can't fix them. I can't think of any way that you could.

I had to decide to clean up my life, and I had to be very careful to keep myself in a situation where I could clean it up when the time was right. If people aren't taking that care, to keep just a bare minimum of concern for rejoining society, then they don't want help anyway, they will refuse it. They will curse you for wanting to help.
I started to say you are ucky, but luck doesn't play into the scenario. You were smart enough to get out of the situation and join the military. Sometimes I think doing away with the draft hurt a lot of young men. I wouldn' want my son in the military, but there wouldn't be all of the street thugs that we have now if they had some discipline. Most have men over had a father figure or been shown any other way of life.
 
Thing is, there are few different KINDS of homeless, and they are separate problems to be addressed with separate solutions. You can't just lump them all together.

1. The "traditional" homeless, the ones who are only homeless because they lost their income, and fell on hard times. They want to work, and have a home again, and a job again, etc. SOLUTION - work programs that include housing options

2. The "addict" homeless, like the above, but are in this situation due to being addicted to some substance, so can't dig themselves out. SOLUTION - same as the above, but including a Rehab program, and supervision almost as a criminal.

3. The "lazy" homeless, perhaps the most difficult to solve. These folks actually enjoy the do nothing lifestyle, even with its risks. Indeed, the risks may even be part of it. They have no desire to better themselves, so a program won't help them. For these types, you have one of two choices...leave them to their own devices, or take care of them, knowing it will never improve. These are the ones who make the most mess, and why they build the park benches the way they do, etc. So, you have to decide...enable them, or treat them as a nuisance?

I propose another category.

Homeless veterans.

I was a paramedic for many years, and a disproportionate number of homeless people are military veterans who are disabled either mentally and/or physically, and they deserve to be in their own category because they fought for (and sacrificed) for our country...and it was this vital service that left them screwed up and on the street.

I believe that our obligation to such people is higher than our obligation to other categories of homeless, but that's me.
 

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