I'm looking at snares.

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old_anorak said:
You do what you got to do when you are at that point.
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Exactly. But I guess I otta' go back to the point that fish is such an excellant meal and can be stretched with rice, vegetables, all kinds of grains. It can add flavor to a bulk up meal which otherwise would be bland at best. And if you can get into a spot where you can put in your own pond, raise what you want.
 
I like to run trot lines and limb lines in the creeks and lakes around here. It gives me the rest of the day to get my other stuff done, I'm not tied to a pole.
 
bill harrell said:
You need to go fishing for the sanity of it. You can't see what's under the water so it consumes your imagination to the point of forgetting your troubles completely.
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You are so right. 50% of fishing is just laying back forgetting that you work for a living, and just enjoying nature, the green of foliage, the blue of the sky, the and the sounds of the birds and bees. The other 50% is making sure that you bring something home to the wife so she knows you're not out on the street. lol
 
Not sure how things are done your way, but Down Under, we trap a lot of rabbits using ferrets. They are an easy pet to raise/keep, etc, but can be rather smelly, and have a vicious bite, BUT, great for trapping rabbits. We lay nets over each rabbit warren entrance, turn the ferret loose down the warren, then the rabbits go mad trying to get out of the warren, getting caught up in the nets. Only problem is if the ferret catches a bunny, then he will stay in the warren feasting.
Then, smoke him out.
Smoking rabbits out is also a great way of getting a feed if you don't have any ferrets.
It's also handy to stand by with a shotgun - one always misses a few well hidden holes - just don't shoot the ferret!!!
 
Not to sound like a lammer, but don't practice real snares on animals if you don't want to hurt them, snares will, when they get caught if it doesnt break or dislocate a limb they will frantically try to break free which can further aggravate their injuries, in a worse case scenario they will potentially chew through their limb to escape.
Also sitting around and waiting for a snare to spring is a little odd unless you want to give away your scent.

You can of course do it and it might be ok but you run the risk of seriously injuring an animal.


Oddly I have birds and squirels chilling here with me, a couple times a year I have birds fly into my garage they seem to like the smoke, I also try and put treats out for them, so they may be JudeoChristian or something. Apparently once you get some of the little criters around they move right in. Now I have no intention of eating them as I'm mostly vegan, but if they were to die of natural causes or accident I might but they are like pets. Also birds will live in hollowed out gutters, attics etc.. if you give them a way to, baiting them up there by regularly feeding them will increase the odds they move in.

As far as snaring though imagine 200lbs of force yanking you by your neck a few inches off the ground... make snares if you want to capture something but don't expect it not to be hurt in the process it very well may be. You can try even netting but animals freak out when they get caught usually if they are wild. They can also be frightened when a human approaches or handles them.

also you might want to check into local traping laws down there not sure if there are any but some animals are protected more than others, turtles could be on that list. Birds have a really good chance if they are migratory. personally I see no issue with eating any protected species if it is dead and I didnt kill it and didn't encourage it to be killed, but there are laws.

The sas survival guide does have some trap types though.

Inuit have some neat birding methods.

For large game I think pit traps are best but I wouldnt.. or why not jut hunt.

none the less rock traps may be best for small game if you can get it to stay in place. but that is lethal trapping.

Getting cage traps used by pest removal agents or mimiking those may be the way to go for humanely trapping small games, rope traps can definately lead to injury.

I share my/our property with small animals. Birds love my mountain ash trees. there are shelter locations for them and the small chipmunks and like, field mice have liked certain locations. larger game would not last long in town I think.. there are about a km away... but Id love to domesticate moose. anyway play safe.
 
I just want to clarify with you William, if I'm setting a snare, it's one meant to kill quick and clean. If I want to catch live to relocate or feed out and fatten up, I use a live trap. I agree that unless you have snares such as HelsRisen described with a locking mech on them, you should be ready to quickly dispatch whatever you snare. I have had one of the state trappers set snares on our place when we had problems with goats and a horse being killed. The snares he set were not meant to kill, but to hold the animal. Nothing was caught and the unofficial opinion of the trapper was most likely a bear. The skin was pulled away from the body and the meat eaten off the carcass with most of the gut sack left alone, most of the damage was on hindquarters, back, and the forequarters with the spine crushed below the skull.
 
old_anorak said:
I just want to clarify with you William, if I'm setting a snare, it's one meant to kill quick and clean. If I want to catch live to relocate or feed out and fatten up, I use a live trap. I agree that unless you have snares such as HelsRisen described with a locking mech on them, you should be ready to quickly dispatch whatever you snare. I have had one of the state trappers set snares on our place when we had problems with goats and a horse being killed. The snares he set were not meant to kill, but to hold the animal. Nothing was caught and the unofficial opinion of the trapper was most likely a bear. The skin was pulled away from the body and the meat eaten off the carcass with most of the gut sack left alone, most of the damage was on hindquarters, back, and the forequarters with the spine crushed below the skull.
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My post was a response to the OP's comment that he didn't want to hurt the animal just practice, using snares on animals does not include the animal will not be hurt, it includes the animal may very well be hurt or even seriously injured. Now people trapping to get animal for food or fur or other materials is a completely different issue. I understand I and others on the board likely have slightly different philosophies, I generally with sanity only support killing animals in self defence if the animal is a clear and present danger and is in the act of potentially seriously injuring or killing you, much the same as I would treat a human, although it would be unacceptable for me to flay and eat a human to most people. There are some times you would want to snare an animal for non lethal reasons such as keeping a living food source, milk etc... to do this you want to use large fenced enclosures a "corale", much the same as fishing with weirs or damns and side cut streams with nets in the stream.

Anywho people live different lives, mine is quite simple and mostly vegan, with protien powder while I do eat animals and fish, I generally do not kill animals and fish at times I just get lucky with hiking, jogging and the like regularly that I know how long animals have been dead and I can do a forensic audit to determie likely cause of death of an animal and if needed take my chances. Not safe food source for most people but I'm still alive and I've never gotten sick from anything I've ever eaten in the wild- with the exception of aged baked dryad's saddle, and bad water I drank once. I have been intoxicated by wild things many times but that isn't ill to me that is just altered consciousness.

I have to note I do eat insects, although generally only mosquitos, which other people will shy away from - this is a bit of tao, that is they try to eat me, so I eat them while they trie to eat me. If you think of it this way, the blood is safer in your stomach than it is in your skin and veins anyway.

I could eat things like worms, beatles etc.. as I regularly have access to them but I prefer to let them live their life as soil enrichers and composters.
I'm just quite blessed not to be meat dependent, when I do have wild sources from nature without killing it myself that is great. I'm also blessed not to run into bears and wolves and other animals that want to attack me, they have always been really respectful and just wandered off, except that one that tried to chase me down after I howled at it at the raspberry patch causing it to run off in the direction I ended up at and this time it headed for me instead of running away, none the less I wasn't armed and was cool with running off since I was tired as I was jogging -- long story short, I don't seek to control animals as I don't need to for my survival, I feel at peace with nature and I feel like it helps me out, and provides company. In my mind I feel that if I care and respect it, it will not have a reason to brutally kill me and feast on my remains. So far it has worked. I'd still like an sks for hiking on the most northern trail route in Ontario though as I seriously do not trust wolves. Bear I will give the benefit of the doubt, moose might be ok, but wolves send me into fight flight mode immediately instead of assess mode. Long story short. traping can hurt animals even if it doesn't kill them, if you think you can trap and not hurt animals you likely will not be able to use traditional trapping methods such as loops various others. The whole idea of a trap is to immobilize the animal this means that the most force it can output cannot be enough to free it. Now think if you could apply all your strength to get away from a clamp or rope, and it didn't give free, ,would it hurt you? Now sure all animals don't have nerves the same way as humans sensitive skin, they have fur and hide etc.. but I do get the feeling animals don't usually like being trapped. Now some domesticated animals get use to it, but take for instance a dog on a leash if a dog runs and you don't go with it, it will hurt, it won't kill it but your dog likely will be like wtf when it hits the end of the leash or you pull it back. That is part of pavlovian negative reinforcement in training animals not to run. Some animals love it so much it is worth the strain.
 
WilliamAshley said:
My post was a response to the OP's comment that he didn't want to hurt the animal just practice, using snares on animals does not include the animal will not be hurt, it includes the animal may very well be hurt or even seriously injured. Now people trapping to get animal for food or fur or other materials is a completely different issue. I understand I and others on the board likely have slightly different philosophies, I generally with sanity only support killing animals in self defence if the animal is a clear and present danger and is in the act of potentially seriously injuring or killing you, much the same as I would treat a human, although it would be unacceptable for me to flay and eat a human to most people. There are some times you would want to snare an animal for non lethal reasons such as keeping a living food source, milk etc... to do this you want to use large fenced enclosures a "corale", much the same as fishing with weirs or damns and side cut streams with nets in the stream.

Anywho people live different lives, mine is quite simple and most vegan, with protien powder while I do eat animals and fish, I generally do not kill animals and fish at times I just get lucky with hiking, jogging and the like regularly that I know how long animals have been dead and I can do a forensic audit to determie likely cause of death of an animal and if needed take my chances. Not safe food source for most people but I'm still alive and I've never gotten sick from anything I've ever eaten in the wild- with the exception of aged baked dryad's saddle, and bad water I drank once. I have been intoxicated by wild things many times but that isn't ill to me that is just altered consciousness.

I have to note I do eat insects, although generally only mosquitos, which other people will shy away from - this is a bit of tao, that is they try to eat me, so I eat them while they trie to eat me. If you think of it this way, the blood is safer in your stomach than it is in your skin and veins anyway.

I could eat things like worms, beatles etc.. as I regularly have access to them but I prefer to let them live their life as soil enrichers and composters.
I'm just quite blessed not to be meat dependent, when I do have wild sources from nature without killing it myself that is great. I'm also blessed not to run into bears and wolves and other animals that want to attack me, they have always been really respectful and just wandered off, except that one that tried to chase me down after I howled at it at the raspberry patch causing it to run off in the direction I ended up at and this time it headed for me instead of running away, none the less I wasn't armed and was cool with running off since I was tired as I was jogging -- long story short, I don't seek to control animals as I don't need to for my survival, I feel at peace with nature and I feel like it helps me out, and provides company. In my mind I feel that if I care and respect it, it will not have a reason to brutally kill me and feast on my remains. So far it has worked. I'd still like an sks for hiking on the most northern trail route in Ontario though as I seriously do not trust wolves. Bear I will give the benefit of the doubt, moose might be ok, but wolves send me into fight flight mode immediately instead of assess mode. Long story short. traping can hurt animals even if it doesn't kill them, if you think you can trap and not hurt animals you likely will not be able to use traditional trapping methods such as loops various others. The whole idea of a trap is to immobilize the animal this means that the most force it can output cannot be enough to free it. Now think if you could apply all your strength to get away from a clamp or rope, and it didn't give free, ,would it hurt you? Now sure all animals don't have nerves the same way as humans sensitive skin, they have fur and hide etc.. but I do get the feeling animals don't usually like being trapped. Now some domesticated animals get use to it, but take for instance a dog on a leash if a dog runs and you don't go with it, it will hurt, it won't kill it but your dog likely will be like wtf when it hits the end of the leash or you pull it back. That is part of pavlovian negative reinforcement in training animals not to run. Some animals love it so much it is worth the strain.
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I humanely trap animals to remove them from a potentially dangerous situation and relocate them to a more remote habitat. You seem to have limited knowledge about modern and humane trapping technique, as well as the response of game to being snared. You also relate in your post your ideas of how am animal "feels" as if having an unpleasant experience is less a part of their daily lives as ours.

I don't so much have a problem with living different lifestyles as I do with the spreading of misinformation.
 
HeIsRisen said:
I humanely trap animals to remove them from a potentially dangerous situation and relocate them to a more remote habitat. You seem to have limited knowledge about modern and humane trapping technique, as well as the response of game to being snared. You also relate in your post your ideas of how am animal "feels" as if having an unpleasant experience is less a part of their daily lives as ours.

I don't so much have a problem with living different lifestyles as I do with the spreading of misinformation.
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No actually i have extensive knowledge of the history of trapping. Someone professionally trapping is not the same as someone practicing with homade traps. As if you read my post you should see I said that using professional trapping equipment for pest removal IE caging can be relatively safe, as opposed to a variety of snappers and "snares". I'm actually a history major who has repeatedly came across this stuff, as well as in my researching survivalist, military, and hunter trapper tools of the trade.

The OP referenced snares, most of which that are of the homemade variety include nooses and limb entanglers often with counter weights with unlimited draw and no safety to limit tension or tightness of the snares. Aside from netting most can cause extensive damage in a short time if they hold. The netting aspect can also be injurious. So if you think I'm missing knowledge on how practice snares don't hurt the animals they capture and kill do enlighten.

Perhaps snare doesn't evoke these images in your head https://www.google.ca/search?q=snar...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=z2qiUYzcF4beqgGT24CYDg

To me it does. Read the thread title it does not say I'm looking at trapping it says I'm looking at snares..

This is a little more than a roller coaster barrel of fun for the little critter IMO


This one looks like its on vacation



None the less... people have their own lifestyles and lines of work, I'm just trying to enlighten that yes being snared will hurt, injure or kill animals quite likely, this is not about whether it is right or not to trap animals, this is about some niavity thinking that animals love to be trapped and slaughtered by high tension cords, as far as I'm aware they don't. I could be mistaken, maybe there is a need to put some MDMA in with that bait so that it is a joyful experience for your game, idk.

You know I'm sure if God or nature has a problem with what you are doing you will have the Karma come back, I think everyone has their own circumstances and compact with nature, I'm not hear to judge just represent my truth.

Squirrel is tastey roasted, but I don't go out and kill em myself. Like I said I live a privleged life where it is impossible for me to starve because I'm spoonfed, I have resources available and this doesn't require me to hunt game, but this doesn't mean i'm not going to practice my aim. You can practice making snares without actually snaring animals. Just like you can practice shooting and stalking animals without needing to shoot them.

1. do not leave snares set
2. do not practice trapping atleast here in Canada unless you are a professional trapper operating a trap line with a license.
Failure to follow these two things in a non survival situation is just a little ignorant.
Now I hate regulation, but 1. is quite important because not only can it injure animals or kill them, but it can injure humans too, to leave traps set where a human came come across them.

I know lots of people view animals as just another object, some people even view humans that way. People will be how they are, imo all I can say is you are inviting trouble if you don't exercise caution and follow the law on any public land.

It appears even Charlton Heston liked snares. I know that was foul none the less it was the line provided. Sorry I was thinking of David Carradine.
 
I'm speaking about snares. Most professional trappers use them. I have live traps but only use in certain situations. If the man wants to practice snare sets, there is a way you can do it with minimal to no stress on the animal.

You clearly state below that you can't do that. I am clearly stating you can. Toy sew referencing antiquated techniques used by trappers and sportsman alike with the intent of dispatching an animal.


WilliamAshley said:
Not to sound like a lammer, but don't practice real snares on animals if you don't want to hurt them, snares will, when they get caught if it doesnt break or dislocate a limb they will frantically try to break free which can further aggravate their injuries, in a worse case scenario they will potentially chew through their limb to escape.
Also sitting around and waiting for a snare to spring is a little odd unless you want to give away your scent.

You can of course do it and it might be ok but you run the risk of seriously injuring ..

As far as snaring though imagine 200lbs of force yanking you by your neck a few inches off the ground
Click to expand...

There are a few snare set techniques that will allow you to practice the effectiveness of your set with little to no trauma to the game. Also soft paw catch techniques as well, depending on game. A false lock set with a chalked line is one way and there are others. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but to the OP when things slow down in a few weeks, I'll sketch you up some non proprietary sets to suite your desired game.

Again, I do this for a living, not something I'm studying the "history" of. I train state and local agents monthly.
 
HeIsRisen said:
You can build non killing snares. Your locking device can be replaced by a washer bent at the y axis into an L shape or 90b degrees instead v shape or an extremely acute angle.

I trap for a living
Click to expand...
WilliamAshley said:
My post was a response to the OP's comment that he didn't want to hurt the animal just practice, using snares on animals does not include the animal will not be hurt, it includes the animal may very well be hurt or even seriously injured. Now people trapping to get animal for food or fur or other materials is a completely different issue. I understand I and others on the board likely have slightly different philosophies, I generally with sanity only support killing animals in self defence if the animal is a clear and present danger and is in the act of potentially seriously injuring or killing you, much the same as I would treat a human, although it would be unacceptable for me to flay and eat a human to most people. There are some times you would want to snare an animal for non lethal reasons such as keeping a living food source, milk etc... to do this you want to use large fenced enclosures a "corale", much the same as fishing with weirs or damns and side cut streams with nets in the stream.

Anywho people live different lives, mine is quite simple and mostly vegan, with protien powder while I do eat animals and fish, I generally do not kill animals and fish at times I just get lucky with hiking, jogging and the like regularly that I know how long animals have been dead and I can do a forensic audit to determie likely cause of death of an animal and if needed take my chances. Not safe food source for most people but I'm still alive and I've never gotten sick from anything I've ever eaten in the wild- with the exception of aged baked dryad's saddle, and bad water I drank once. I have been intoxicated by wild things many times but that isn't ill to me that is just altered consciousness.

I have to note I do eat insects, although generally only mosquitos, which other people will shy away from - this is a bit of tao, that is they try to eat me, so I eat them while they trie to eat me. If you think of it this way, the blood is safer in your stomach than it is in your skin and veins anyway.

I could eat things like worms, beatles etc.. as I regularly have access to them but I prefer to let them live their life as soil enrichers and composters.
I'm just quite blessed not to be meat dependent, when I do have wild sources from nature without killing it myself that is great. I'm also blessed not to run into bears and wolves and other animals that want to attack me, they have always been really respectful and just wandered off, except that one that tried to chase me down after I howled at it at the raspberry patch causing it to run off in the direction I ended up at and this time it headed for me instead of running away, none the less I wasn't armed and was cool with running off since I was tired as I was jogging -- long story short, I don't seek to control animals as I don't need to for my survival, I feel at peace with nature and I feel like it helps me out, and provides company. In my mind I feel that if I care and respect it, it will not have a reason to brutally kill me and feast on my remains. So far it has worked. I'd still like an sks for hiking on the most northern trail route in Ontario though as I seriously do not trust wolves. Bear I will give the benefit of the doubt, moose might be ok, but wolves send me into fight flight mode immediately instead of assess mode. Long story short. traping can hurt animals even if it doesn't kill them, if you think you can trap and not hurt animals you likely will not be able to use traditional trapping methods such as loops various others. The whole idea of a trap is to immobilize the animal this means that the most force it can output cannot be enough to free it. Now think if you could apply all your strength to get away from a clamp or rope, and it didn't give free, ,would it hurt you? Now sure all animals don't have nerves the same way as humans sensitive skin, they have fur and hide etc.. but I do get the feeling animals don't usually like being trapped. Now some domesticated animals get use to it, but take for instance a dog on a leash if a dog runs and you don't go with it, it will hurt, it won't kill it but your dog likely will be like wtf when it hits the end of the leash or you pull it back. That is part of pavlovian negative reinforcement in training animals not to run. Some animals love it so much it is worth the strain.
Click to expand...
The only way I can respond to this post is to say you have a very busy mind. And I wish you the best wherever you are.
 
Well if the guy knows what he is talking about he should be able to share all his wide knowledge of non harmful snaring techniques. Easiest way to educate.

You can say a lot and unless you have evidence to back that up it is just rhetoric.

So share your vast knowledge of legal non harming snares.

Do some searches on humane snaring

You get things like this
http://www.onekind.org/uploads/publications/snares-in-scotland.pdf

btw don't take my spelling as a sign of my literacy my computer has had multiple trojans on it for the last couple months and ongoing so my accounts such as this one are compromised and there is have been ongoing editing of my posts on the internet for years now just a heads up. Note this is not editing done at this point but some other mechanism that does not have the edit show up as an edit on boards. I'm not 100% sure how it is done but it has. Just a heads up. Its a mechanism of reducing credibility of myself online, which is not the only place I have been targeted. I have noticed since posting here the last day or two it has popped up on this website. I'm not certain the reason.

Just to restate here, if he has evidence of humane snaring methods I'd really like him to share it.
 
WilliamAshley said:
Well if the guy knows what he is talking about he should be able to share all his wide knowledge of non harmful snaring techniques. Easiest way to educate.

You can say a lot and unless you have evidence to back that up it is just rhetoric.

So share your vast knowledge of legal non harming snares.

Do some searches on humane snaring

You get things like this
http://www.onekind.org/uploads/publications/snares-in-scotland.pdf

btw don't take my spelling as a sign of my literacy my computer has had multiple trojans on it for the last couple months and ongoing so my accounts such as this one are compromised and there is have been ongoing editing of my posts on the internet for years now just a heads up. Note this is not editing done at this point but some other mechanism that does not have the edit show up as an edit on boards. I'm not 100% sure how it is done but it has. Just a heads up. Its a mechanism of reducing credibility of myself online, which is not the only place I have been targeted. I have noticed since posting here the last day or two it has popped up on this website. I'm not certain the reason.

Just to restate here, if he has evidence of humane snaring methods I'd really like him to share it.
Click to expand...

I just shared with you two methods for practice. One leaves a non toxic chalk line on where the snare would have set, so you can see on their body the accuracy of your set, but doesn't restrain the animal.

This is the main vehicle I use to train agents. False sets are created by cutting a groove in the locking mechanism that allows the cable to flow through the lock.

A non killing snare can be set by knowledge of your target and channeling her into snare that detains but slips. You do that by replacing manufactured locks with a washer bent at a 90 degree angle. The angle can be modified depending on the type of game, but 90 works for most. This will let the lock slide back to just above center and won't allow it to retain the tension applied by the animals tugging. A novice with little knowledge of game will not restrain a portion of their game and maybe a very small percentage of game may sustain injury. I would argue that they are more likely to get ran over or taken by a predator however.

Oh, and I don't care about your spelling and or grammatical errors. I'm just trying to keep the thread on track. The difference in me disagreeing with you and your response is that I'm telling you that I have years of first hand trapping experience and you claim none. You appear to be Wiki, YouTube and Internet educated on it and are telling me I am a liar.
 
Just to state upfront under no circumstances am I calling you a liar by my prior posts, I said it was rhetoric likely to decrease antagonism by PETA and SPCA folk against the practice which has overtime been more and more regulated by government, likewise the idea of a mean old trapper ripping the skin off of cute animals is not one most people want for fear of having fake blood and tomatos thrown at them.

On the contrary I just have seen no evidence people should go out practicing snaring on live animals thinking no harm could come of it. Oh I'm not youtube wiki based but these are often accessible means of getting information from credible organizations whereby other people will not have access to other sources. If you want to debunk the youtube videos I posted I invite you but I am quite convinced that they are authentic. I'm not someone oblivious to physics sciences were actually my highest grades and I've gone on to do science and engineering related learning such as for my advanced amateur radio certification, geophysical sciences, space sciences, and rocket science. I'm not claiming to be a genius and I am certainly NOT calling you a liar, but I do think that your position is not heavy on the evidence, and you seem to just have a different standard of "harm" and potential for harm. I think that is perhaps what it amounts to.

Regardless some inexperienced trapper has a much higher chance of injuring an animal, in that "small percentage" than a professional trapper does. That is like going into hunting as a hobby and just handing someone a gun and saying go get them varmints. Fact is hunters ain't suppose to go out and blow holes in animals they are suppose to go out and take the animal down preferably with one shot kill.

You seem to be saying, no harm can come of it to the animal when you are really saying, hurting the animals doesn't matter they'll recover and if they don't they are just a stupid animal, now go get your flu shot.


btw --- I sort of think quite a few animals caught in snares, are "harmed" as part of their march to death or escape from the shackles at whatever cost necessary.

How many animals have you found dead in your traps :) Was it a fun death some massive MDMA overdose or doped up on painkillers?


Is onekind a group filled with moronic propaganda masters? I havn't seen anything that does not look authentic.. can you perhaps point out how the onekind link is wrong?


Ok and thankyou now how does some newbie go out and do the non locking snaring, is there a youtube video on this?


amazingly when you type in non locking snare into youtube you only get videos on making locking snares... odd hmm, and when you try nonlocking snare you get no hits.

Basically what you are saying is having metal wire coated in chalk but one that only lashes across their body at high speed will cause no harm, when it is much better to say it will cause less harm than a locking snare.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but have you tested these non locking snares on yourself and can you attest you felt no pain in the snare being sprung? After you have spring that snare on yourself hopefully with video you will have much more evidence. Now what if fur got stuck in the catch? hmm could that not cause it to lock?

have you tested it on your fingers, your wrist, your neck, your foot etc... if so great post up the video to sooth the SPCA folk out there and demonstrate it is harmless.

I have this feeling the idea you are supporting here is what hurts humans doesn't hurt animals, abuse of humans isn't applied at the same standard as abuse of animals, animals can take more pain without being hurt, am I wrong?
 
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