I am looking on different scenarios for atomic winter. I think if there is a lot of NOx forming in the atmosphere, chanses to survive are slim to none. You would need a NOx-scrubber with good efficasy and just one breath of the unpurified air would possibly kill you. It does matter offcourse how much NOx that is present but this is toxic. Formation of NOx is now ruled out so maybe its less of a problem. If it is more general smoke from fire in plastic, wood, oil, fabric etc this can be filtered with a HEPA and a activated carbon filter. These are available in good quality air purifiers. So, a room say 40m2 with tight windows and a controlled air supply and a filter could maybe keep you alive. If you change filter regularly and have a stock of these maybe you can survive 2months? 1 year? The numbers I have seen for the time to get good clean air again is 2months or 1-4 years. The air will slowly get better outdoors so filters will be less clogged after some time. How long do you think one can survive under this conditions? Will there be rescue-people coming after one month to help you? How many people are prepping for this situation? The military have resources with filtrated air, the higher ranking officers will survive for long time if they get into these facilities. Also the president etc,
Atomic Winter
- Thread starter rolnor
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Hello Rolnor
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Well, nuclear winter is one thing, air filter is another, but you also have to ask yourself if the world is still worth living in that you still have a chance to go out.
Personally, I don't think much of being locked up in the apartment for a year, because in addition to the air filter, you also have to fill the entire apartment with food and be mentally able to endure a year in there.
If you live in Sweden, you will probably not be number 1 on Uncle Putin's hit list, unless you have specifically angered him.
If you live near Germany then I can understand your preparations, Germany would be very sure to get a few Russian missiles.
You should not hope for external help, if it comes to such an event, no one will help you, not even the army.
How did you find this forum? Tell us something about yourself so that people can get to know you better.
Einführung neuer Mitglieder | Prepper & Survivalism Forum (doomsdayprepperforums.com)
Well, nuclear winter is one thing, air filter is another, but you also have to ask yourself if the world is still worth living in that you still have a chance to go out.
Personally, I don't think much of being locked up in the apartment for a year, because in addition to the air filter, you also have to fill the entire apartment with food and be mentally able to endure a year in there.
If you live in Sweden, you will probably not be number 1 on Uncle Putin's hit list, unless you have specifically angered him.
If you live near Germany then I can understand your preparations, Germany would be very sure to get a few Russian missiles.
You should not hope for external help, if it comes to such an event, no one will help you, not even the army.
First I will say , I am not a scientist and this topic is based on something that has never been seen or the results of a full nuclear exchange seen . Personally however , I doubt the air itself will be toxic . Radioactive particles created by the blasts however can settle down onto the body and be breathed in . These particles according to scientist will dissipate in 3 or 4 days . None of this is good but it isn't like nerve gas or something that will be a death sentence . Running around with gas masks isn't something my tribe plan to be doing . We simply don't consider the threat of breathing in radioactive dust high enough to warrant that . Perhaps some that live on the edge of a known nuke target may find this precaution to be justified . My tribe live well beyond any nuke target and only have to be concerned about a radioactive cloud that through weather conditions might travel into our area and then descend to the ground . --- We will simply shelter inside our houses and Wate for the radioactive level to be low enough to be deemed safe . In my stash is an old Civil Defense radiation meter to check the radiation level so that we will know what we are dealing with . Depending on a general weather / radiation report won't cut it as even one mile could mean a huge difference in the radiation level on the ground . --- My bigger concern is not breathing the air but growing a garden after all the nuking is done .
Ban1985
I just searched the net. I am a research chemist and ceramist and movie producer.
I have place for food/fuel/water, no problem. Yes, I am not sure I can/want to live like that. Maybe I can start writing on my book-project or do some sculpting or other artistic things. No, I dont think I will get any help, at least not for a long time. But some people will survive and they will be interested in other survivors. If I get to a point maybe I will commiit suicide, I can just use my gasoline power-supply and breathe the exauhst. This is a good way to go, you just fall asleep.
Poltiregist
Its debated wether the air will be breathable but when there was a forest-fire in Russia, the air was full of smike here in Sweden so the world is a small place. So I listen to the experts and sime say 2 monthst others 1-4 years. Many large cities wll burn. Sweden is threatenened by Russia now beacause we want to join NATO. I live 25km from a major arms-industry here so I am close to a tactical target. The fallout is no problem, I have a concrete basement somI plan to stay ther for a few days.
I just searched the net. I am a research chemist and ceramist and movie producer.
I have place for food/fuel/water, no problem. Yes, I am not sure I can/want to live like that. Maybe I can start writing on my book-project or do some sculpting or other artistic things. No, I dont think I will get any help, at least not for a long time. But some people will survive and they will be interested in other survivors. If I get to a point maybe I will commiit suicide, I can just use my gasoline power-supply and breathe the exauhst. This is a good way to go, you just fall asleep.
Poltiregist
Its debated wether the air will be breathable but when there was a forest-fire in Russia, the air was full of smike here in Sweden so the world is a small place. So I listen to the experts and sime say 2 monthst others 1-4 years. Many large cities wll burn. Sweden is threatenened by Russia now beacause we want to join NATO. I live 25km from a major arms-industry here so I am close to a tactical target. The fallout is no problem, I have a concrete basement somI plan to stay ther for a few days.
NOx is something I had to look up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx
Evidently, various oxides of nitrogen can be produced at high temperature. Roinor, do you think there are going to be enough atomic explosions in a war to make this a problem?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx
Evidently, various oxides of nitrogen can be produced at high temperature. Roinor, do you think there are going to be enough atomic explosions in a war to make this a problem?
Depending on how old and how much use that CD Geiger counter saw, it might be good to have it calibrated or at elast check it against a standard. Does it have a built in sample on the side under a little metal door? Geiger tubes don't last forever and their life is dependant on the type of gas used to fill the tube and if it stayed sealed. The gas is usually a noble gas that contains a small amount of quenching gas. This gas can be a halogen like bromine or an organic like butane. In the case of the organic quenching gasses, they are slowly destroyed during normal use. These quenching gasses extinguish the conductive path in the tube gas caused by the ionization event. Without it, there is a dead time in the tube limiting the number of counts per second that it can detect. If the tube saturates, a high level of radiation can appear on the counter as a safe level even when moderate sources still register as dangerous. Does it have a mica alpha window? If that window was damaged or if any of the seals went, there might not even be gas in it. Get that "old" counter checked out!
I also agree that NOx would likely not be a problem, but being an amateur self-taught once-wannabe chemist myself who has long forgot most of what I read, wouldn't bubbling air through water with a weak base or peroxide be an ideal scrubber for NOx gas if it were to become an issue?
Some time ago researchers beleived that NOx will form but later on the consensus is that it will not be a problem. All over, these are hard things to make models of, no one really knows because large-scale nuke war has not been done.
You might be right, but for curiosity sake, I would like your opinion on this: NurdRage had a youtube video where he makes nitric acid from NO2 and water (then again with NO2 and hydrogen peroxide solution). Although both methods worked, the water was not capturing all of the gas and the peroxide was something like 15 or 20% - which people will not have. However, his bubbler method with beakers in water was hardly ideal so maybe the small amounts in the air would actually be captured by either method with readily available materials. I do have sulfide (just not sodium, mine is the zinc salt from when I was playing with electroluminescence) and hydroxide on hand, so is that method more effective at capturing trace NO2 gas? I would assume the small amounts present would be easily scrubbed with a minimal setup. Feel free to PM me if this is getting too far off topic for this post.
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How much dust is kicked up from the more likely air detonations? I know the ground dets throw dust higher than the clouds where it does not rain, but I have yet to find an article that differentiates between the two situations. Most nuclear testing was done on the ground and most articles like this are referring to what they learned from those ground tests. If most of the nukes went off above ground, would there even be that much dust getting pulled up?
What I am finding is that the answer to this depends upon who you ask. I am currently reading a book called "the Cold and The Dark" By Paul Ehrlich and Carl Sagan. But, even it is antiquated information going off premises and situation from the mid 1980's....well before the world had all of the technology now available to them and without consideration of the "modern" nuclear capabilities. There is also the confounding factors in their research such as personal beliefs, such as destruction of the planet by human hands...so I do tend to take it with more than an grain of salt.
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I love all those "climatologists" from 50 years ago. According to Paul Ehrlich, I am now 50 feet underwater. The United States Forest Service has given up calling CO2 a green house gas and just admitted it is part of the oxygen cycle. Nice video though.
Rainin: Very interesting, even in this very hard judgement of the riscs from SHTF the danger from all things except food-shortage stops around 1year. Toxic gases stops around 6months-1year. As you point out, this was before all kinds of computer-models and now konsensus is that it will be very much milder consecuenses. This is 6000Megatons so its pretty bad. You can make food from petroleum products with some chemistry, I dont know how far this chemistry is now but humans surviving will make food somehow, maybe nuclear reactors produce electricity and this is used for lighting in greenhouses that produce food. We are not helpless. Is make a print screen of this table. The risc pandemic is low because it will be low population density. You may go crazy but that is something you can fight. One thing is very important, if you beleive there will be an end to this, hope can carry you a very long time.
It's nice to see an article that agrees with me. Common sense just doesn't support nuclear winter IMO.. The dust that makes it into the stratosphere is from the initial hot air rising and pulling up what is around the heat source with it. A ground burst pushes this dust away, then sucks it back in straight toward the heat source and up it goes. An air burst cannot do that, nor can a forest fire. Besides, with an air burst, the radiation source is much further from the dirt and the dirt will be far less radioactive. For these reasons, I believe the fallout maps are over exaggerated as well. It is physics, but all people see is the fear mongering. Why else would the Civil Defense program be scrapped and fallout shelters abandoned? "Live in fear, but do not prepare" seems to be the government motto, so either they want people dead (which is bad for their bottom dollar, conspiracy theories aside) or they merely need the fear to support exactly what Candice Owens said in that twitter video about war...
Me personally, I will prepare to the best of my abilities with optimism and logic. If people want to act hysterically, that (however cruel this sounds) is to my eventual benefit.
Its very uppsetting that most people consider a large nukewar as something you can not survive, if this is wrong. We should be given the best data and models and told exactly what to do. We could have small commercial NOx-scrubbers in the retail for example. Many videos on youtube use the data from the 80-s and that is really crazy, they had almost no computing power at all.
@rolnor You might enjoy like reading Nuclear War Survival Skills by Cresson H Kearny. He was Biological & Chemical Program Manager for Navy SEAL Team 6. I got my copy (the red one on this page at Amazon) recently and he is adamant in his position a nuclear detonation is survival if you keep your head on straight. And he tells you exactly why (and how) anyone can do most of his recommendations. But more importantly, it is written in plain English so a 73 year old woman like me can UNDERSTAND the material he is presenting in the book. He leaves no stone unturned in is clear guide for coming out on the other side of a nuclear detonation.
Mike Adams of Natural News/Health Ranger blogs highly recommended it in a recent podcast and I'm so glad I bought got and read it. Before reading it, I, too, wsa one of those that thought survival was not very likely if detonation was within our country's borders. Only for those lucky enough to have access to underground sheltering. Before readiny Kearny, I'd only new what I had read in my Dad's military pamphlets on nuclear detonations and their effects. After reading Kearny, I no longer think this way. He also has lots of diagrams and photos to facilitate his recommendations for best chance of survival.
Mike Adams of Natural News/Health Ranger blogs highly recommended it in a recent podcast and I'm so glad I bought got and read it. Before reading it, I, too, wsa one of those that thought survival was not very likely if detonation was within our country's borders. Only for those lucky enough to have access to underground sheltering. Before readiny Kearny, I'd only new what I had read in my Dad's military pamphlets on nuclear detonations and their effects. After reading Kearny, I no longer think this way. He also has lots of diagrams and photos to facilitate his recommendations for best chance of survival.
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In the Intro of Kearny's 1987 edition, he says it is an updated version of the 1979 original Oak Ridge National Laboratory survival book to reflect changes in thinking since SINCE 1979. New topics addressed: info on current Russian warheads (size, accuracy, etc.), making and using survival items, refutes many myths about detonations and radiation, info on prepper supples in detail (advantages, disadvantages, prices, souces), best survival foods and most needed daily life preps, info on prophylactic potassium iodide to protect thyroid gland, info on low-cost DIY simple shelter building, how to recognize what type of detonation occurred from the visible & audible environmental evidence, radiation levels of each type of detonation and its slow diminuation over time, how to reduce risk if you are not at or near ground zero, how to reduce sickness, and simply how to deal with and reduce the emotional stress of it all for you and your family. It's too much to ever remember it all IMHO but it will be re-read so we can be sure we are ready as much as is possible with our current preps and keep it handy for aftermath guidance. Honestly, there isn't a topic he didn't address for me. It's a thorough, well-laid out presentation, yet still clearly compassionate about the human side of surviving a blast, whether it occurred at ground level, near ground level or detonated higher up in the admosphere.
My husband has only read the forward and first few pages and was very impressed. Plans to finish it soon.
My husband has only read the forward and first few pages and was very impressed. Plans to finish it soon.
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I also believe it is survivable, and I think Sagan, while having good intentions, was a bit off.
However, I also believe that it will be impossible to foresee every consequence since it has never happened before and unfortunately, it will only take one mistake to be deadly. Luck, for instance, a high vs low pressure system coming through and the timing of that, will play into the individual outcomes to some extent.
However, I also believe that it will be impossible to foresee every consequence since it has never happened before and unfortunately, it will only take one mistake to be deadly. Luck, for instance, a high vs low pressure system coming through and the timing of that, will play into the individual outcomes to some extent.
I will read it, thanx! I must say that the fact that you are 73years old does not mean that you are ignorant, just that you are "year-rich" as we say in Sweden(!).
Yes, I'm aged like a fine wine, as they say in America. LOL
