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Don't try to compare farming or feeding the hungry to trophy hunting in order to justify your argument.

China and India have population issues. Are people to start trophy hunting humans too? Your argument is ridiculous. The elephant population is already drastically depleted.
Maybe one day reality will give you a kick in the rear, so your sugar coated candy dreams would evaporate, and you would finally wake up and smell the roses and not someone elses idea of what roses should smell like.

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Maybe one day reality will give you a kick in the rear, so your sugar coated candy dreams would evaporate, and you would finally wake up and smell the roses and not someone elses idea of what roses should smell like.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Based on your previous posts, your the one whom appears to be in danger of getting a kick in the rear. You're in hostile territory. I imagine you have bigger issues than elephants.

I'm not religious but I believe in karma. I don't believe in the ritual of killing and celebrating the death of other advanced living things unnecessarily.
 
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Based on your previous posts, your the one whom appears to be in danger of getting a kick in the rear. You're in hostile territory. I imagine you have bigger issues than elephants.

I'm not religious but I believe in karma. I don't believe in the ritual of killing and celebrating the death of other advanced living things unnecessarily.
You still don't get it, where do you think the money goes that the hunter pays for the elephant, if there was some mythical organization that was willing to pay for the conservation expenses and relocation and protection of these animals, we wouldn't use them to help? With the ANC government the situation has actually worsened, money that is supposed to help with the conservation is not getting there, do you know about the huge rhino poaching problem that we are currently facing, or that we barely have any donkeys left, because the Chinese are slaughtering them in their thousands and sending the hides back to China for some type of Chinese medicine, same with the rhino horns. So what would the costs be to the other species if trophy hunting was banned, do I like it, no I don't. But consider this that if the 50 richest poeple in the world owned about 80% of the assets/money of the whole world, and we have to resort to trophy hunting to partly finance conservation then where does the problem actually lie. And buying a packet of "Life Savers" to make you think that you can feel good for contributing to the conservation of elephants ain't going to do the trick, until poeple don't start putting their wallets where their mouths are, trophy hunting will still go on.

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Based on your previous posts, your the one whom appears to be in danger of getting a kick in the rear. You're in hostile territory. I imagine you have bigger issues than elephants.

I'm not religious but I believe in karma. I don't believe in the ritual of killing and celebrating the death of other advanced living things unnecessarily.
And on the topic of getting our buts kicked, if do, and we are not here anymore, wonder if the nice African folks that are left would care two hoots about conserving elephants. Reminds me of what happened in Kenya after their independence, they slaughtered every living thing in the National Park after all the cows and sheep was gone. When things calmed down, the Parks was restocked and replenished with animals from all over Africa that was partially funded through the sale of ivory then when it was still legal. It's not nice or aplaudable but it is the reality. In the 70's crocodiles where being poached to the brink of extinction here, for their skins in Europe, for handbags, we came up with croc farming, where a steady supply of unblemished skins was supplied, poaching almost immediately stopped and the numbers of crocs in the wild returned to normal. So banning trophy hunting tomorrow, would probably cause the extinction of the wild population of rhino in 3 to 4 months time.

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Based on your previous posts, your the one whom appears to be in danger of getting a kick in the rear. You're in hostile territory. I imagine you have bigger issues than elephants.

I'm not religious but I believe in karma. I don't believe in the ritual of killing and celebrating the death of other advanced living things unnecessarily.
Let me go further and give you a practical example in my area we have a Game Farm, where hunting and Trophy Hunting takes place, locals hunt for the meat mostly, international hunters come for the the prize buck and also pays about 3 to 4 times more for it. This farmer was able to purchase 3 rhinos about 2 or 3 years ago solely for the purpose of conservation through money he made through the hunting trade wich the most is made from trophy hunting. He is able to hire trained armed guards to protect those rhino's 24 hours a day 7 days a week, with no funding from the state or any other bunny hugger organization out there, so tomorrow you stop trophy hunting, next month no more armed guards no more rhino's.

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Don't try to compare farming or feeding the hungry to trophy hunting in order to justify your argument.

China and India have population issues. Are people to start trophy hunting humans too? Your argument is ridiculous. The elephant population is already drastically depleted.
Back to the topic of your "Life Saver" products. It is probably owned by one of those 50 richest poeple in the world that probably own about 100 000 products or more, but only chooses to donate a small percentage of one product for the conservation off animals, makes me wonder who is using who to make money to serve their own interests, which is making more money and not the conservation of wildlife. IT'S IS AN EYE BLIND, IF COMPANY X CAN BE PORTRAYED AS BEING REALLY CONSERNED ABOUT PRESERVING ELEPHANTS, THEY CAN RAISE THEIR PROFITS BY X AMOUNT. They couldn't care less if there was no more elephant's left in the wild tomorrow, it is not what it is but what it can be made to look like.

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Let me go further and give you a practical example in my area we have a Game Farm, where hunting and Trophy Hunting takes place, locals hunt for the meat mostly, international hunters come for the the prize buck and also pays about 3 to 4 times more for it. This farmer was able to purchase 3 rhinos about 2 or 3 years ago solely for the purpose of conservation through money he made through the hunting trade wich the most is made from trophy hunting. He is able to hire trained armed guards to protect those rhino's 24 hours a day 7 days a week, with no funding from the state or any other bunny hugger organization out there, so tomorrow you stop trophy hunting, next month no more armed guards no more rhino's.

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It's funny how this topic is being taken way out of context. Read my original post. It's about the death of a trophy hunter. In my original post I was paying respects to the hunters death but acknowledging that I do not condone or agree with trophy hunting. END OF STORY.

No offense but I do not know you or what agenda you may or may not have. I don't know African politics so I'm not going to debate African politics.

This is real simple. I do not for a second buy into the argument that elephants NEED to be trophy hunted in order to balance things.

I absolutely do not agree that the people who trophy hunt care about the conservation of elephants.

I also believe that people who trophy hunt endangered animals like elephants are weak, cowardly and disconnected people. I do not see any sport in it and never will.

Unless you enjoy debating for the sake of it...you're wasting your time attempting to justify this.

I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on anyone...I've simply stated my stance and IM FIRM. Everyone here can trophy hunt till they're blue in the face. Just please spare me the sales pitch of conservation as the justification. Two wrongs don't make a right. Everything you do is a choice.
 
Toexist, let me back up and start over. I will refrain from personal attacks, and I ask you to try to do likewise. Please hear me out...

Whether or not an individual decides whether he is comfortable with hunting is an individual choice. You aren't, I respect that. That is entirely your choice.

You completely mischaracterized what I said earlier. I was talking about "allowing" vs "banning" sport hunting (of which "trophy hunting" is the primary form). It had nothing to do with a personal choice of whether I was comfortable with hunting elephants. In fact, I decided a long time ago that the only one of the "Big 5" (elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, lion and leopard) I would feel comfortable hunting was the cape buffalo. I don't think I could bring myself to shoot an elephant unless I absolutely had to.

However, there is no fine distinction between "meat hunting", "sport hunting", "culling", and "trophy hunting." The lines are very blurred, but in many cases the same hunt can fall into all of the above categories.

In Africa, "sport hunting" and "trophy hunting" are pretty much one in the same. A warthog can be a "trophy" as well as an elephant. Meat hunting is something usually done by poachers and therefore falls outside the restraints of the law. Meat hunting by poachers is destructive, follows no conservational guidelines, and can competely wipe out a population of animals.

Full Disclosure: I have been on safari in Africa...I shot lion, elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, giraffe, waterbuck, gazelle, and impala...WITH A CAMERA.:)
Kili-Buffsb_zpsqzgocykm.png

I have personal experience with wildlife conservation. On our farm in the Mississippi Delta, we have been actively managing the wildlife habitat on that land for decades. My father and uncle started that in the late 1960s because unrestrained MEAT HUNTING had decimated the wildlife population. We had to actively protect the place from poachers for many years. At that time we were one of the only places that still had wildlife habitat (everything around us had been leveled for cotton and soybean production). We have undertaken a number of conservation programs with the state and federal government, and surrounding landowners over the years, and now there is ten times more wildlife habitat in the vicinity than there was in 1970. This year, we will be taking another 55 acres out of cultivation to plant trees for wildlife management in a federal government conservation program. Last year we put in two levees and flood structures to create permanent wetlands (in places that used to be natural wetlands until the Corps of Engineers built a levee on the river)


Now, I can talk on this subject until I'm blue in the face, but you are likely to dismiss whatever I say as biased.

That's fair...

Here is what the LIBERAL PRESS has to say about the importance of trophy hunting in conservation in Africa:

New York Times: A Hunting Ban Saps a Village's Livelihood
LA Times: Why Trophy Hunting is Good for Endangered Species
Hoover Institution at Stanford University: How Hunting Saves Animals
Deutsche Welle: WWF defends elephant hunting
The Telegraph: Trophy hunting can be a lifeline for Africa's Wildlife
The Percolator (Property and Environment Research Center): Shoot an Elephant, Save a Community?
 
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Toexist, let me back up and start over. I will refrain from personal attacks, and I ask you to try to do likewise. Please hear me out...

Whether or not an individual decides whether he is comfortable with hunting is an individual choice. You aren't, I respect that. That is entirely your choice.

You completely mischaracterized what I said earlier. I was talking about "allowing" vs "banning" sport hunting (of which "trophy hunting" is the primary form). It had nothing to do with a personal choice of whether I was comfortable with hunting elephants. In fact, I decided a long time ago that the only one of the "Big 5" (elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, lion and leopard) I would feel comfortable hunting was the cape buffalo. I don't think I could bring myself to shoot an elephant unless I absolutely had to.

However, there is no fine distinction between "meat hunting", "sport hunting", "culling", and "trophy hunting." The lines are very blurred, but in many cases the same hunt can fall into all of the above categories.

In Africa, "sport hunting" and "trophy hunting" are pretty much one in the same. A warthog can be a "trophy" as well as an elephant. Meat hunting is something usually done by poachers and therefore falls outside the restraints of the law. Meat hunting by poachers is destructive, follows no conservational guidelines, and can competely wipe out a population of animals.

Full Disclosure: I have been on safari in Africa...I shot lion, elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, giraffe, waterbuck, gazelle, and impala...WITH A CAMERA.:)
Kili-Buffsb_zpsqzgocykm.png

I have personal experience with wildlife conservation. On our farm in the Mississippi Delta, we have been actively managing the wildlife habitat on that land for decades. My father and uncle started that in the late 1960s because unrestrained MEAT HUNTING had decimated the wildlife population. We had to actively protect the place from poachers for many years. At that time we were one of the only places that still had wildlife habitat (everything around us had been leveled for cotton and soybean production). We have undertaken a number of conservation programs with the state and federal government, and surrounding landowners over the years, and now there is ten times more wildlife habitat in the vicinity than there was in 1970. This year, we will be taking another 55 acres out of cultivation to plant trees for wildlife management in a federal government conservation program. Last year we put in two levees and flood structures to create permanent wetlands (in places that used to be natural wetlands until the Corps of Engineers built a levee on the river)


Now, I can talk on this subject until I'm blue in the face, but you are likely to dismiss whatever I say as biased.

That's fair...

Here is what the LIBERAL PRESS has to say about the importance of trophy hunting in conservation in Africa:

New York Times: A Hunting Ban Saps a Village's Livelihood
LA Times: Why Trophy Hunting is Good for Endangered Species
Hoover Institution at Stanford University: How Hunting Saves Animals
Deutsche Welle: WWF defends elephant hunting
The Telegraph: Trophy hunting can be a lifeline for Africa's Wildlife
The Percolator (Property and Environment Research Center): Shoot an Elephant, Save a Community?

I feel like I'm typing in Portuguese at this point.

Never once did I say I have a problem with hunting.

I have extended family & close friends who hunt. My former boss was a trophy hunter. You can't lump all animals of the world in one category. Nor can you lump hunting to feed your family to trophy hunting for sport in the same category.

Fishing for bass and hunting bottlenose dolphin wouldn't be the same would they? Neither is an elephant to a deer. Two entirely different dimensions.

I'm not trying to change the world over here. People do whatever it is they choose to do and justify it to themselves on their own. People also become discencitized and disconnected from their actions over time.

It's sad because some people believe all living things were put on this earth for our entertainment and disposal. I can assure you...they were not. They were around long before we were and will likely be around when we are long gone.

If we were all to disappear tomorrow they would eventually...take it back.
 
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Many people let there emotions over shadow reality. Even though there intentions are good, it's not reality. Strong uncontrolled emotions = stubborn ignorance. We all have it. We have to train ourselves to not let those emotions create our ignorance without completely suppressing our emotions. If we do not, then we have Riots, anarchy, gang violence and aggressive wars, etc.... We will even have extinct animals and the destruction of human civilizations because of stubborn ignorance. Emotions are a wonderful powerful, special gift, but if not controlled will be a powerful destructive force!

Unconditional Love is the most powerful emotional force there is for good. Mix in other emotions and it can be destructive.
 
Many people let there emotions over shadow reality. Even though there intentions are good, it's not reality. Strong uncontrolled emotions = stubborn ignorance. We all have it. We have to train ourselves to not let those emotions create our ignorance without completely suppressing our emotions. If we do not, then we have Riots, anarchy, gang violence and aggressive wars, etc.... We will even have extinct animals and the destruction of human civilizations because of stubborn ignorance. Emotions are a wonderful powerful, special gift, but if not controlled will be a powerful destructive force!

Unconditional Love is the most powerful emotional force there is for good. Mix in other emotions and it can be destructive.

I don't believe emotion is the problem. Quite the contrary. Apathy is the problem. People are disconnected from their actions. Some people do things just to feel alive because they are numb inside.

I can think of many things to do to feel alive that don't involve taking the life of another intelligent life form.
 
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I don't believe emotion is the problem. Quite the contrary. Apathy is the problem. People are disconnected from their actions. Some people do things just to feel alive because they are numb inside.

I can think of many things to do to feel alive that don't involve taking the life of an another intelligent life form.
Apathy is an emotion, or rather it is a symptom of certain negative emotions.
Trophy hunting may not be the best method of preventing animals from extinction, but it is a method that's proven to work and has other benefits. Untill we can come up with a method that works, it's what we have. Emotions do not solve the problem, it can only serve as an incentive to solve it.
 
Apathy is an emotion, or rather it is a symptom of certain negative emotions.
Trophy hunting may not be the best method of preventing animals from extinction, but it is a method that's proven to work and has other benefits. Untill we can come up with a method that works, it's what we have. Emotions do not solve the problem, it can only serve as an incentive to solve it.

Please don't try to patronize me. Don't insult my intelligence. I'm not some liberal tree hugger. Stop trying to pretend that trophy hunting and conservation are one and the same. They're most definitely not.
 
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Here you want a sport...this here is a sport. The truest of the true. No weapons. Two men enter...one man wins. Watch the 2ND half of video till the very end to see what I'm talking about. You want to see what people are made of...watch them fight. The truth comes out real quick.

Killing an elephant from the back of a Range Rover with a $5,000 rifle isn't a sport in the slightest sense of the word.
 
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Toexist, im not the one insulting your intelligence. Your responce is a great example of what I have been trying to get you to understand. Your confused as to what I have said due to your emotions, emotions are not a bad thing at all to have, but they do not solve anything. I Never said trophy hunting and conservation are the same thing. Trophy hunting is a done for many reasons, its just a tool that is used for conservation when other methods are not available. Just using Emotions to prevent an animals exstinction will not work. I do agree that trophy hunting is not the best solution. What solution do you believe will solve this problem?
 
Toexist, im not the one insulting your intelligence. Your responce is a great example of what I have been trying to get you to understand. Your confused as to what I have said due to your emotions, emotions are not a bad thing at all to have, but they do not solve anything. I Never said trophy hunting and conservation are the same thing. Trophy hunting is a done for many reasons, its just a tool that is used for conservation when other methods are not available. Just using Emotions to prevent an animals exstinction will not work. I do agree that trophy hunting is not the best solution. What solution do you believe will solve this problem?

If u would've read one of my previous 647 posts on this thread u would know that I'm not attempting to solve anything.

I've simply stated my belief & stance on the subject matter. I've never had so many people agree with my stance and yet attempt to debate me at the same time. This is bizarre.

No one here is being emotional. This is a debate were stances are taken...opinions exchanged. Nothing more nothing less.

I've made my stance clear. Feel free to do as you choose.
 
lord this has become stupid,,if one hunts fine if you don't that is ok also,my hunting is limited by time and money,,,I do not care about trophy hunting but if I was out hunting deer and a world class buck happens by I am going to take the shot,,,now Africa,,it does not matter what you like or don't like this elephant was targeted for death,I am not going to go back and look for the reason,instead of just killing it and giving the meat away they turn it into a trophy hunt,would I ever go on one of these hunts????,,,,no,,,do I like them ,,,no whomever goes on one of these hunts pays through the nose to go,,,,if someone wants to piss away their money I'm ok with that ,the animal was going to be killed anyways

by the way we do the same here in the USA with buffalo
 
lord this has become stupid,,if one hunts fine if you don't that is ok also,my hunting is limited by time and money,,,I do not care about trophy hunting but if I was out hunting deer and a world class buck happens by I am going to take the shot,,,now Africa,,it does not matter what you like or don't like this elephant was targeted for death,I am not going to go back and look for the reason,instead of just killing it and giving the meat away they turn it into a trophy hunt,would I ever go on one of these hunts????,,,,no,,,do I like them ,,,no whomever goes on one of these hunts pays through the nose to go,,,,if someone wants to piss away their money I'm ok with that ,the animal was going to be killed anyways

by the way we do the same here in the USA with buffalo

I don't care what they do ghost. I'm just calling it what it is. A buffalo and an elephant are two completely different animals.

It don't matter anyways. I believe in karma. If someone thinks killing an elephant is an accomplishment...they've got issues.
 

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